If you agree, vote yes. If you disagree, let's agree on a definition of a sportscar before you vote no.
That's an inconclusive 30-page thread right there...
Quote, originally posted by Jon Felton, NASA Autocross Coordinator »
Speaking of media, did anyone get any pics? Especially of the white Honda Accord CrossTour in heat 1. As we always say, nearly anything can be autocrossed. ;-)
I thought the agreed upon definition of a sports car was a 2-seat, RWD, manual transmission, convertible.
So if the Elan is a sports car, then is the Mercury Capri?
Quote, originally posted by Turbiodiesel! »
While the young Fiesta gains strength, the Focus must protect it from the F-150 Raptors that stalk the water holes. Fiestas are able to drive from birth, but are weak and slow, and until they are three months old they are vulnerable to predators. Soon, though, they will join their parents to follow the coming of the rains.
One need only look to racecars before 1920 for a bunch of FWD ones.
/thread
Quote, originally posted by Viergang Fuchs »
Unfortunately, hackin' it is a way of life in auto journalism. Hemingway was able to drive an ambulance and write a book; most of these guys couldn't do either.
Hey, I just trying to elicit out what other people's definition of a sports car was.
Quote, originally posted by Turbiodiesel! »
While the young Fiesta gains strength, the Focus must protect it from the F-150 Raptors that stalk the water holes. Fiestas are able to drive from birth, but are weak and slow, and until they are three months old they are vulnerable to predators. Soon, though, they will join their parents to follow the coming of the rains.
Basically, my opinion is a car whose main goal is performance. Mainly in the twisties, but it's gotta have SOMETHING in the straights, too. Not for showing off, not for hauling people around (meaning that the traditional sports car is a two-seater, yes, but I also think a 2+2 can be allowed), not for hauling cargo around. (However, having those traits doesn't NECESSARILY exclude it from being a sportscar, just makes it harder to meet the definition.)
The M100 Elan meets that definition.
Partially because Lotus even chose the FWD drivetrain... for performance reasons!
The Acura ITR would easily qualify to be a FWD sports car, IMO.
Ultimately, it is what the intent of the production vehicle is and how well it meets that goal. Most FWD cars are not built for performance first, however there are always exceptions to the rule. Conversely, RWD/2 seats/optional drop top does not equal sports car (Chevy SSR, Factory Dodge Dakota Conv., etc.)
Quote, originally posted by Viergang Fuchs »
Unfortunately, hackin' it is a way of life in auto journalism. Hemingway was able to drive an ambulance and write a book; most of these guys couldn't do either.
If they were intending it as a chick car, then... But if it was intended to be a sports car, I guess we can let it in...
Oh, and another thing about that definition - 2 seat, RWD, manual tranny, convertible - while an automatic kills the car, is the Miata Automatic not a sports car? (totally unrelated to this thread's topic...)
It is not just intent, but execution as well. The Civic Del Sol would kinda' fall into that same genre, meant to be something of a FWD "Sports Car" but outclassed by other Honda offerings when it came to true performance.
Quote, originally posted by Viergang Fuchs »
Unfortunately, hackin' it is a way of life in auto journalism. Hemingway was able to drive an ambulance and write a book; most of these guys couldn't do either.
All these other cars people are coming up with are fine cars I suppose it depends on how you define "sports car" -
You mentioned 2+2 Coupes. Those aren't sports cars, they are 2+2's, they already have a designation. I don't see why people see it as a big insult for something not to be a sports car.
Same thing with those truck things. Sports Car = RWD + Manual + Soft Top, but RWD/Manual/drop top may not necessarialy mean it's a sports car. It doesn't necessairly have to be reciprocal.
The Integra Type R is a really neat car as well, but does that open the door to all other performance oriented cars, homologation specials or not? What then about the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution, WRX STi, Taurus SHO even?
To some people, a Red Pontiac Grand Am 2-door is a sports car, and you can probably find convincing literature from Pontiac on the subject as well.
Also for as far as having pick-up on the straights, what about an MG-TD? or did it fall short on excecution?
You mentioned 2+2 Coupes. Those aren't sports cars, they are 2+2's, they already have a designation. I don't see why people see it as a big insult for something not to be a sports car.
Conversely, I don't see why people get worked up when times and definitions change. I would bet you anything you want that if you polled people as to whether Porsche's are sports cars (which is certainly not true if you go by the strict archaic definition you are referring to) they would almost universally say yes.
I see it all the time in magazine articles and advertising, certain cars being referred to as "sports cars" which according to some in the CL aren't.
I'm curious as to why you think the older traditional understanding of a sports car can't be adopted to modern times. Back in the day (at least in the US) you had boring sedans, pony cars/muscle cars, and convertible "sports cars". And the occasional economy car like the beetle or early datsuns. But now you have a MUCh more varied classification of cars. The term sports car is simply a generic term, to which a variety of different types fall under. Thus, there are different types of sports cars. If you look at any modern book written exclusively about "sports cars", you will find lots of cars people in here would consider GT cars for example.
A sports car is no longer a narrowly defined type of vehicle that has one specific design template. People have expanded the types of cars that exist currently. At the same time, it would be ridiculous to classify a roadster as a sports car, yet the same, fixed top version, as a GT for example. That's just silly.
Though I suppose there will always be those who absolutely refuse with all their might to move into modern day and feel comfort in holding on to their archaic definitions.
Tom Current: 94 SLC; 08 XF LTD-6 spd Previous:06 GTI, 99.5 Jetta, 85 jetta coupe (x2), 93 Fox
Integra Type R, GTI, Corrado, Civic Si (Type R), Lotus Elan, and so on.
Very varying price ranges, I know. Now, these are arguably not sports cars by the true definition of the word, but they are sporty (ie. can be driven quickly), and posess greater capabilities than most average vehicles. So, sports coupes, compacts, hot-hatches... whatever you want to call them. Fact is, they are all FWD, and can be, or are designed to be driven quickly.
I guess it depends on your definition of sports car vs sporty car. IMO - Ferrrari's, Lambo's, Porsche, Vette, Viper and the like are sports cars. The integra, miata, and the like are not a sports car.
Quote, originally posted by janeandpier »
Uh oh, I have woken The Dark Lord of the Forum - Darth Vortex.
I think you partially define sports car by the intent of the manufacturer. The Integra Type-R was no doubt, a purest sports car. Yes, it drove the wrong wheels, but everything about the design decisions that went into it were focused on performance and driving experience. That is started off on an already "sporty" platform (double-wishbones at each corner, high rev'ing/specific output engine, etc.) only affirms this.
I'd say the same holds true, maybe to a lesser extent, for the SRT-4. The only reason why I discount that car slightly versus the Type-R is that the Neon platform it was based upon probably had a lot further to go to be a performer than the Integra did.
For the most part. If memory serves, it's also the cucumber capital of Japan. Hence the home-market ads for the FT-86 featuring Takeichi-kun, the cartoon cucumber whose meteoric rise through the underground drift world has shamed him in the eyes of his school-master.
I think you partially define sports car by the intent of the manufacturer. The Integra Type-R was no doubt, a purest sports car.
No, the ITR was designed to be a fast, fun sport coupe. The S2000 was their intention to make a sports car. FWD cars are never, ever sports cars. No exception. Not the original MINI, not the new MINI, not the FWD Lotus Elan, nada.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
No, the ITR was designed to be a fast, fun sport coupe.
Agree to disagree, the changes to the ITR go beyond fast/fun sports coupe. Lower final drive + limited slip, removal of sound deadening/sunroof, structural braces, shocks/springs, 5 bolt hubs vs. 4 bolt, small diameter lightweight wheels, 195HP 1.8L engine (108 HP/L, rev limited @ 9000rpm - those are Ferrari like numbers), and I think A/C was even optional.
Most companies doing a fast/fun version of their cars do things like upsize the rims, add a body kit and maybe some slightly lower springs. How many have you seen go so far as to change bolt pattern on the wheel hub, or handbuild a motor with 2000 additional RPMs to play with?
I guess it depends on your definition of sports car vs sporty car. IMO - Ferrrari's, Lambo's, Porsche, Vette, Viper and the like are sports cars. The integra, miata, and the like are not a sports car.
I'm sorry, are you implying that the Miata is fwd?
The Miata certainly is a sports car. My definition includes 'purpose built'. Purpose built would include the Elan, but not derivatives of economy cars, such as the Corrado or Integra. Are they fast and fun? Sure, but they're not built to be sports cars from the ground-up. If that's overly rigid for some, then take my definition with a grain of salt.
Fwiw, Karmann Ghias are not sports cars by my definition, since they're derived from Beetles, but the Porsche 356 is, even though they are mechanically similar. The Porsche uses a monocoque frame and a more performance-designed engine. (Yes, the early cars used alot of Bug parts, but the Chassis was completely different.)
Does that lessen the beautiful and hand-made Karmann Ghia? I think not! Nor does it lessen the Integra or Corrado.
Edit: The Elan was the first thing that came to my mind as well! How anyone could not consider it a sports car is beyond me! It was one of hte first to use carbon fiber in it's body, was it not? All of it was designed from the get-go as a sports car, ergo, it is.
Modified by Air and water do mix at 1:05 PM 12-14-2006
Quote, originally posted by Burnin8r »
thumbs down (to wooden steering wheels) unless its a car that you drive while wearing a leather helmet + goggles while yelling "tally ho, chocks away!"
Quote, originally posted by patrikman »
A restoration to me is some sort of exorcism/brainwash for a car. /rant.
Agree to disagree, the changes to the ITR go beyond fast/fun sports coupe. Lower final drive + limited slip, removal of sound deadening/sunroof, structural braces, shocks/springs, 5 bolt hubs vs. 4 bolt, small diameter lightweight wheels, 195HP 1.8L engine (108 HP/L, rev limited @ 9000rpm - those are Ferrari like numbers), and I think A/C was even optional.
Most companies doing a fast/fun version of their cars do things like upsize the rims, add a body kit and maybe some slightly lower springs. How many have you seen go so far as to change bolt pattern on the wheel hub, or handbuild a motor with 2000 additional RPMs to play with?
Maybe do some fact checking. Aside from the fact that modifying a FWD car to be closer to a racecar does not make it closer to being a sports car, it revved only 300 rpm higher, not 2000rpm higher since the GS-R it's engine was based on had an 8100rpm redline compared to the ITR's 8400rpm redline. Tons of cars, especially from the 80's and 90's, have different bolt patterns for different models.
Front wheel drive cars can easily be made in to race cars. They can be made very fast and go 'round a roadcourse with lap times comparable to a RWD car of similar power to weight ratio. That still doesn't make a FWD car a sports car, it's just a fast FWD car, typically called a sport compact, or sports coupe.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
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